In Re: to other instances that involve a remnant, past, present, and future, along with the other instances already mentioned...
Past: Enoch was spared the time and place of the flood (Genesis 5). Noah and family were kept through the flood (Genesis 6). (Also interesting things to study, given that the end times are likened to both Sodom and Gemorrah, as mentioned above, *and* the days of Noah.) Israel was spared the judgments given Egypt in Exodus, and carried on the wings of eagles to a place prepared her in the desert (as will happen again...look in the future section). 7,000 were spared the sword that had not bowed the knee to Baal in the time of Elijah, and the wicked king Ahab and his wicked wife Jezebel (1 Kings 19). When the Israel was divided into two Kingdoms, the faithful were spared captivity from the Assyrians, as they all joined the Kingdom of Judah. (2 Chronicles 11:16-17) Even when Judah became unfaithful as well, and taken captive by Babylon, still there was a remnant God protected through the captivity (Daniel and his 3 friends, for example).
Present: There is now a remnant chosen by grace...a remnant of Israel, and a remnant of mankind. (Romans 11:5-6 speaks of the remnant of Israel chosen by grace, the scriptures concerning the Body of Christ show the remnant of mankind that God keeps.) There have been many attempts to wipe out Israel and also followers of Christ throughout history. God has preserved both Israel and believers. Though many die, still, our presence is never completely wiped away.
Future: The rapture was already mentioned for the Body of Christ (which parallels with Enoch). Also, many in Israel will be kept safe, protected through the time of Jacob's trouble (which parallels with Noah). At this time, many will flee to the desert as Jesus instructs them in Matthew 24:15-21, to the place God has prepared for them. (Rev. 12:6, Rev. 12:14, Isaiah 40:31)
Post by charliedohmann on Feb 7, 2012 19:27:50 GMT -5
I agree with every insight Bill and Charlotte have shared. Great insights. I didn't think of them all myself--although I did think of Jesus with the ref in the Manger. The difference between Israel before the death of Jesus and us now is that we can all run immediately to Him ask ask forgiveness when we blow it and they had to go up, up, up once a year with a sin offering that would cover them... We should never rest in our religion. We should know and listen for His voice and be obedient.
Post by charliedohmann on Feb 7, 2012 19:42:12 GMT -5
I always thought of the remnant as being the only ones following God at the particular time. But this shows me we can't tell even with those taken away--they could be like Enoch. They could be wonderful followers of God that He took to Himself or those who refused to listen. Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. This helps me personally a great deal. My Paternal grandmother was taken away right after my Pop's birth and I couldn never understand. Now I know the truth is hidden in Him.
Jude 1:5 5 Now I want to remind you, though you know all these things: The Lord first saved a people out of Egypt and later destroyed those who did not believe;
Been reading Jude lately.....a remnant here was just a few men and the next generation children. The Lord has come to save all men, yet there are those who do not believe.... or will not believe. Keeps me in gratitude and praise that the LORD has his eye on me.
In studying the first chapter, I love the contrast between all that Israel is doing that God detests... All those offerings, yet they were meaningless. All the feasts kept and Sabbaths kept on the outside, but not the inside (v. 10-15). Religion without relationship, ritual without meaning. And then what God is offering. To not just cover sins, but to wipe them away (v. 18). It shows so clearly the character of our God...that He is both Holy, Holy, Holy, and full of grace and mercy.
I'd like to share something really cool with you all, that we learned in church when studying v. 18. In scripture, our sinfulness is often linked with darkness, so we often ascribe the color black to sin. However, in verse 18, it states are skins are like scarlet (fitting, as sin means a sacrifice of blood must be made)...red. We were talking about how it is possible that our sins can be as scarlet, but yet, God can see us white as snow. Even while we were *still dead in our sins* Christ died for us. How is that possible? Well, we linked Colossians 3:3, about being hidden in Christ. When God looks at us, He sees His Son. We are covered by His blood. In photography, when you look at a red object through a red lens, the object appears white, even as it is red. When God looks through the red blood of His Son at us, covered in scarlet sins, we are white as snow. That has stuck with me, and I thought it was an awesome analogy. Had to share.
When reading chapter 2, I was thinking about the conversations I have had regarding whether or not there will be another earthly temple. Verses 2-3 show us that there will. Verses 6-22 remind me of Revelation 15-17, when the mighty men of the earth are hiding in caves in fear of the Lord. It is at this time they proclaim the Wrath of God and of the Lamb has come...from the opening of the first judgments...the seals. And that is where I see our hope. This is God's Wrath, and we are not appointed to it. And I also see a warning in verse 22... The warning that I continue to give out. Put your faith in God, not man. Presidents, leaders, pastors, teachers....etc....they all come and go...they all disappoint at some time. But God never fails. In Him and His Word we put our trust.
Chapter 4, verse 2 and 3 kind of goes in hand with our previous discussion on our group, re: dual covenant theology. These verses show us that only the survivors of Israel will be saved. So that it is imperative, in these days, to be a witness both to the Jew and the Gentile, for who knows the number of our days?
Re: Isaiah 5:26, and the discussion question, I see it as saying more about God's Will than man's free will (or lack of, depending on how one believes). The pattern of God from the beginning is that when one continues in unbelief, God hands them over to blindness, and uses them and the evil they would commit as tools for His refiner's fire. And out of the turmoil and grief, we always have the remnant, refined and made pure. In other words, no matter how men may turn against God, and reject Him, God's Will still stands. I am reminded again, as I alluded to earlier, of this scripture, regarding Joseph and his captivity at the hands of his brothers...Genesis 50:20: "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." It also goes hand in hand with this verse: Romans 8:28: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." God's chosen nation turned against Him, so He blinded them further so they could not see. He then, to refine and restore them, uses unbelieving nations (still those who chose unbelief first) to put them through the refiner's fire. In the end, Israel will be saved *and* judgment will be poured out on the unbeliever. What the nations intended and intend for evil, God will use it to accomplish salvation for many lives.
While this collection of passages had a fulfillment in the Assyrian captivity, I also see a future fulfillment, as they speak of the day of the Lord, and also the Kingdom.
God's chosen nation turned against Him, so He blinded them further so they could not see. He then, to refine and restore them, uses unbelieving nations (still those who chose unbelief first) to put them through the refiner's fire. In the end, Israel will be saved *and* judgment will be poured out on the unbeliever. What the nations intended and intend for evil, God will use it to accomplish salvation for many lives.
For discussion purposes, I am curious about something, which is the entire reason I brought up discussion point #3. We had a discussion not too long ago on the CSWI Facebook board about whether or not The Holocaust as a judgment from God. And while I personally do not believe it is, it follows the SWRJR model (Sin -- > Warning --> Remnant --> Judgment --> Restoration) perfectly. The Jews were taken away as prisoners, evil had its way, yet there was left a remnant that would soon see the restoration of Israel.
Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good? …….Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'
All events are the products of His divine counsel. Whatever is done God is directing it, and the works of his hands agree with the words of his mouth. SOVEREIGNTY is an amazing attribute of our GOD whether we perceive it as judgment or not.
Post by charliedohmann on Feb 8, 2012 9:14:56 GMT -5
I was wanting to find a scripture last night and I found it: Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Jesus didn't just cover our sin for a year--He redeemed us and washed our sins away. The rapture IS a great example too Mikael! Great hope here--we have been made the righteousness of God! Thank you Jesus! Lord willing, I'll fly away!
Post by charliedohmann on Feb 8, 2012 9:31:15 GMT -5
Re: Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. I had to study this in art class Jean, I was so shocked to realise it, but when God made light He defined the darkness--just as without the Low we would not have known sin.
Without the knowledge of good--we would never have known evil--but knowledge of good and evil was not God's desire for us when Adam and Eve ate from the tree--His desire was that they would tend the tree for Him as an offering. Maybe at some point He would have shared it with them--but only after it had gone through the fire of His love...
Re Lam 3:38 - This is why I want to be able to read the original text for myself because my Bible says "Lam 3:38 Both the evil and the good do not go out from the mouth of the Most High."
... For discussion purposes, I am curious about something, which is the entire reason I brought up discussion point #3. We had a discussion not too long ago on the CSWI Facebook board about whether or not The Holocaust as a judgment from God. And while I personally do not believe it is, it follows the SWRJR model (Sin -- > Warning --> Remnant --> Judgment --> Restoration) perfectly. The Jews were taken away as prisoners, evil had its way, yet there was left a remnant that would soon see the restoration of Israel.
Yes, I agree with you, Mikael, and also with what Dana said about God using what nations intend for evil to bring about good ( restoration; salvation; purification, blessing etc. ). As horrible as the Holocaust was, God did use it to fulfill His prophetic Word in the restoration of Israel and the return of Jews worldwide to their ancient homeland. Did God plan for the Holocaust to happen? No, I don't think He did but in His foreknowledge He knew it would happen. Could God have prevented the Holocaust? Of course He could have but God sometimes allows evil to run it's course for His own reasons that may not be clear to us at the time.
It's a tragedy that in the aftermath of the Holocaust many Jews have turned away from God and have become atheists. I believe it was one of God's intended purposes to draw them closer to Him.
I don't believe that the Holocaust was a judgment from God upon the Jews because " they killed Christ " as some say. Those who say that are basing their belief on Matthew 27:25 which is regarded by Jews to be an anti-semitic verse of the New Testament. However, as I have said many times before. The Jews did not kill Jesus. He laid down His own life, of His own will, as a ransom for the souls of Jew and Gentile saying:
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
~ John 10:17-18 KJV
" Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion. " ~ Psalm 129:5 KJV
The thing I am really thankful for is how our Lord keeps showing mercy and Grace. Bill Harper--you are right tbe parallels are pretty amazing. Is this intentional? Do you think God is writing our future in this particular book?
No, not necessarily, Charlotte. As a nation we yet have space to repent of our wickedness and evil ways as Israel did. I believe that the things that happened to Israel were written for our learning and for our admonition ( Romans 15:4; 1 Corinthians 10:11 ) so that we might not repeat the same errors, commit the same sins and fall under the same judgments. It's clearly evident to me though that many Americans are rejecting God's counsel, that much of America is not taking heed to the warnings in God's Word and that we have not learned the lessons of history. As Christians, our hope is in the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua ( Jesus ), and our future is tied to that of Israel's regardless of what happens to America in these last days. We have a glorious future in Christ.
" Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion. " ~ Psalm 129:5 KJV
Bill, I love what you have said above. And Mikael, I too, as you know from the group thread, do not believe the Holocaust was a judgment from God. Like what was said above, I believe God knew about it, and allowed it to run its course for the working of His Will, according to His foreknowledge, but He was not the author of it.
I am a strong believer in dispensations...that is certain times, ordained by God from the foundation of the world, in which He deals with mankind in a different way...all with the purpose of reconciling as many to Him as will come. So that, I believe "today is the day of salvation," and the "time of God's favor" (2 Corinthians 6:2) I believe the bad things that happen right now are not God's judgment (it's not time for that yet...His time of Wrath and Judgment are foreordained...the Day of the Lord...the time of Jacob's trouble...the Great Tribulation), but rather the workings of the enemy and/or simply products of the original fall of all creation...cause and effect. (Certainly the Holocaust is the former and not the latter.) Satan has his time of judgment coming, when all unbelievers are judged...when he has drawn the line in the sand between "whosoever will" and the person who "has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace". If the time of God's judgment is here, then all the world has run out of time, and their fate is sealed. But God's patience in judging means salvation. 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." And 2 Peter 3:15 "Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him."
God's holiness does indeed shine the light all the more on evil. To declare what is holy by default declares what is evil. It draws a line and sets a standard. But if we are to understand that God *created* evil, in the sense that He is the author and cause of it, then by His own holy, holy, holy standards, He is condemned. However, if we are to understand that the nature of His holiness displays all the more our sinfulness, we can rightfully see how Isaiah could describe Him so. Within His sovereignty, He has given us the right (and now, the ability through the power of the Holy Spirit) to choose between His rule and the rule of our enemy. Being outside of time, and knowing already the choices we will make before we are ever a concept in the thoughts of our parents, He will and does work all things to His purpose and Will....for the good of those who love and serve Him.
Hey, how do you get the responses of others (and scripture references) to go in the little boxes to clarify your responses? Lol! I haven't had the time yet to figure it out. But it certainly would come in handy for me. Is it just a simple copy/paste? Or do you have to do something special? I'm new to forums and all they entail....